EP19 - Laurel Senick author of Foam: Navigating the World of Self Publishing and the Business of Writing
Oct 17, 2023Episode 19
Kickstart Collective
It's not every day we get to talk about writing, surfing, and the journey of self publishing a book. But today, we're doing just that with the multi-talented author, Laurel Senick.
With her first novel 'Foam' and her upcoming novel 'Luminescent', Laurel takes us on her journey from the writing desk to self publishing. She shares the challenges of wearing multiple hats as a writer, marketer, and businesswoman - and how she manages to balance them all.
Dare to dream about your own writing career or creative passions as we further explore Laurel's creative process, her writing community, and surf retreats in Puerto Rico.
Laurel shares her experience navigating the stormy seas of publishing, taking the naysayers opinions with a grain of salt, and powering through obstacles. Laurel's story is not just about publishing a book, it's about believing in her projects and staying focused. You won't want to miss this one!
Watch on YouTube Follow on Instagram Subscribe to our email list
//
Meet your hosts and learn more about Kickstart Collective at kickstartcollective.co
Kickstart Collective is a creative marketing agency based in Wilmington, NC. We offer our clients a creative advantage through creative content and marketing strategies.
Kickstart Collective is a creative marketing agency based in Wilmington, NC. We offer our clients a creative advantage through creative content and marketing strategies.
It's not every day we get to talk about writing, surfing, and the journey of self publishing a book. But today, we're doing just that with the multi-talented author, Laurel Senick.
With her first novel 'Foam' and her upcoming novel 'Luminescent', Laurel takes us on her journey from the writing desk to self publishing. She shares the challenges of wearing multiple hats as a writer, marketer, and businesswoman - and how she manages to balance them all.
Dare to dream about your own writing career or creative passions as we further explore Laurel's creative process, her writing community, and surf retreats in Puerto Rico.
Laurel shares her experience navigating the stormy seas of publishing, taking the naysayers opinions with a grain of salt, and powering through obstacles. Laurel's story is not just about publishing a book, it's about believing in her projects and staying focused. You won't want to miss this one!
Watch on YouTube Follow on Instagram Subscribe to our email list
//
Meet your hosts and learn more about Kickstart Collective at kickstartcollective.co
Kickstart Collective is a creative marketing agency based in Wilmington, NC. We offer our clients a creative advantage through creative content and marketing strategies.
Kickstart Collective is a creative marketing agency based in Wilmington, NC. We offer our clients a creative advantage through creative content and marketing strategies.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Two Can Talks podcast brought to you by Kickstart Collective. Join us as we talk to local Wilmington business owners about what has led to their successes, challenges and more. No question is off limits as we bounce from topic to topic.
Speaker 2:
And this podcast is brought to you by Kickstart Studios. Kickstart Studios is Wilmington's newest video podcast studio, equipped with multiple camera angles and an in-house producer. Creating a high quality video podcast has never been easier. Don't let the tech and gear learning curve hold you back from jumping into podcasting or creating video content any longer. Our team takes care of it all for you, so you can focus on the message you want to share. You simply show up record and receive the final product. No more wasting time setting it up and breaking down the gear, setting up lights or doing sound checks on your own. Our in-house producer will have everything set up and ready to go for you. Check us out at Kickstart Studios.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to Two Can Talks. We are so excited to have you on here talking about being an author and publishing a book and we'll dive into like the business marketing side of that, which will be fun. But if you want to introduce yourself and your book and then how you kind of got into being an author and that process, we can start there and then we'll dive into our lovely game. Cool, I can't wait to play the game. It's going to be fun.
Speaker 3:
Well, I'm Laurel Sinek and I've been in Wilmington for like forever and I learned to surf about two decades ago, thanks. And once I learned to surf, it seemed to be this font of never ending creativity for me. So I started. I used to work in film, so that was kind of the first thing creative that I did with out of surfing was create a little short documentary about the people that I surfed with. But right in that early time I went looking because I love to read for a book that had surfing in it. And I read some of the books and I was like you know, I really want one that has that female protagonist that surfs. And I just started looking and looking and I was like really, there's not one.
Speaker 1:
It doesn't exist and it didn't exist.
Speaker 3:
And while there was, uh, bethany Hamilton has the little middle grade books and I read those, but I was desperate yeah, no, um, and they were cute, but um, yeah. So when I started writing 10 years ago um, nonfiction, and then started writing, playing with fiction of the woman who is the, was my mentor really writing? It was like you're so creative, you should try fiction. And then I was like I know what I want to write, I want to write what I wanted to read. So that's what I did. That's awesome, yeah.
Speaker 1:
I mean, I feel obviously we're talking in this case about writing, but I feel like that's from a business perspective. There was a gaping large need in the market and you're like. I can do it, yes.
Speaker 3:
Well, I mean, actually, I was like I wasn't sure if I would be able to try to do this.
Speaker 1:
I didn't do it, you did do it, you did it I did finish it, but it did take eight years. Yeah, hey, that's okay. Good things take time. I know I was thinking about it because obviously we've known each other for a long time, and I remember when you were talking about, like I think I'm going to start writing a book, and then I was like was this, that book? This?
Speaker 3:
is that book?
Speaker 1:
I didn't know if that was when you had started. Then you switched. That's cool.
Speaker 3:
I did start it and then worked on it probably five years and then put it on the shelf, because if you read a sentence a hundred times, you're done with it. You can't read it objectively so, and it gave me a chance to work on book number two Cool. And then I was able to come back months and months later to look at this and go. You know what I can make this work? Yeah, we're going to make this happen.
Speaker 1:
And it's called foam, by the way. Oh, yes, foam, it is on Amazon. We have a question, not for you, but we do have a question in the toucan for some of our guests with business owners. Read bad reviews kind of like celebrities read mean tweets. So I did look on Amazon as I was prepping for this, to see if you had any bad reviews and you didn't. So kind of a bummer for our podcast, but good news for you.
Speaker 3:
Well, I will say, on good reads, there is another one that I should look for. Not a bad review, but there's a three or two, but they didn't say anything. Oh no, and it's like. Well, it means some constructive. Yeah, tell me what. Can my next book be better? I want it to be better.
Speaker 1:
I'll just doc my rating if you're not going to actually give me feedback.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, exactly Whatever Meh there, but it doesn't matter. I'm joking.
Speaker 1:
Um, cool. So for those of you who have not watched this podcast, um, basically, or listened to it, I would say watching is more fun. But if you haven't listened to and done, um, what we do is we have this board with the classic coin drop game, so we give our guests these tokens. You can drop it anywhere on the board. If it lands in a one, it's our business questions. If it lands on a two, it is our two. Can Um, those are more personal fun questions. Sometimes we call it the party. Can Um, there's lots of options.
Speaker 1:
Party can to can Two can yes, has too many names. Um, if you drop it and it flies off the board, it's okay.
Speaker 3:
We just do it again.
Speaker 1:
Um, we did make a rule. If it gets every now and again it gets like stuck on a peg. If that happens, then you get to ask me a question. If you're like, I don't know to ask you, we do have a stack of cards back there. You can from the worst. There's self-deck no um, look what above it.
Speaker 2:
Oh, okay, yes.
Speaker 1:
The cuter one you can pull from this. I think there are some more self-questions in there, but um yeah, so that's how it goes. So we're going to grab a coin.
Speaker 3:
Let's do this.
Speaker 1:
See what happens.
Speaker 3:
That's exactly what you were talking about, don't worry, it happens.
Speaker 1:
Let me try. Happens to the best of them, ooh One million dollars. You won $1. All right, um, we're diving right in. So what surprised you most about the business side of writing and publishing a book?
Speaker 3:
Hmm, that's a good one. What surprised me the most? Um, well, I was surprised when I started researching um, what sales are expected, or what's the norm for sales and publishing. And if you are publishing independently, the average is less than 250 books sold for the life of that book. Oh, wow, yeah, that's pretty dire straight.
Speaker 1:
Yeah For yeah for the amount of time and then that you've put into it yeah. Yeah. So, what's like the average? Is it like 15 to like $25? Like what's the average?
Speaker 3:
Uh, the amount that the book sells for, um, I don't know, they didn't. That wasn't part of. I mean, I'm sure that's in the statistics but I don't know what the average book cost is. But to me I just thought, oh, okay, well then I just have to beat that number, yeah, then I'm in the top like 5%, yeah, and but then in the first month I beat that number. So then I was like, okay, most traditionally published authors, they sell maybe um a thousand of that book before in the life of that book. Yeah, so that's the average, okay, so my goal was a thousand by Christmas, yeah, and I'm I'm working up to 900 now.
Speaker 1:
So yeah, that's great. I feel like people. That's a great Christmas.
Speaker 3:
That's a great Christmas gift. That's right, she showed the show, yeah.
Speaker 1:
Great Christmas gift. Let's get her to a thousand by Christmas.
Speaker 3:
It's called thumb and it's got a little surfer girl on it.
Speaker 1:
Well, that's cool. So you went the like independent route I did Cool Um and you've already.
Speaker 3:
yeah, I mean, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:
You're almost. Yeah, I'm almost there.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I'm stoked, and so, uh, took off the writing hat and put on the marketing hat, because it's really hard to do that creative slog through writing and be marketing at the same time. Yeah, I don't know how you do it, because you do both.
Speaker 1:
Yes, I um, yeah, I think, from like our perspective, it's having like I have to. Actually I love marketing, I got into this because I love marketing, but then the hat that I have to put on is like, oh, I have to run a business, mm, hmm, and do payroll and accounting and bookkeeping, which eventually we have outsourced some of our accounting, but you know. So, yeah, it's hard to like. I have to like segment my days on, like this day I'm going to focus on this, or I'm going to focus on like start marketing in this day.
Speaker 1:
I'm going to focus on like client work, which is still marketing, but it's different.
Speaker 3:
So you're, you kind of put the marketing part in the creative box more than than the business side of marketing, where I'm kind of like lumping that all together. But now that you say that maybe that's something that I could segment out a little bit yeah, do a little bit of both during my creative time so I've just kind of imagined myself like okay, we're stuck in the marketing mode and I'm doing this till Christmas, and then I'm done. Yeah, no, I feel like you, you had definite.
Speaker 1:
I mean even from like the copywriting and like all that on the creative marketing side. I feel like you were great at that because you liked to write.
Speaker 3:
Well, yeah, so some of that part is fun, but it's definitely it's more purposeful. Well, no, it's just purposeful in a different way, yeah, first, yeah, learn something every day.
Speaker 1:
That's true. Here we go.
Speaker 3:
Cool, all right, here you go.
Speaker 2:
Oh.
Speaker 3:
I'll get to doing this. Yes, take two.
Speaker 1:
Take two, don't miss. All right, shake them up. So we do have some question like standard questions and we have some questions that are specific to you. We'll see this is a standard, standard question what is the best business advice you've received? So maybe in relating Well, I guess, business or related to writing. Writing.
Speaker 3:
Okay, well, related to writing, of course, there's the kill your darlings, which means those little bits of writing that you love, you slaved over. They're wonderful. They're wonderful, but do they serve the story and the reader?
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
And so those were the things that got cut right at the end, because you're like hold on to them yeah.
Speaker 1:
I'll get you off the blanket.
Speaker 3:
And then you just that's a good one.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I like that. That also applies to marketing. Marketing. Gosh. So many life lessons, no, sonny. We were talking about, like, creating marketing content for your audience, and just because you think it's good doesn't mean that's what they need, that's right. Or even if it is good, it is what they need. Like, how do you position that to where they connect with it?
Speaker 3:
There you go, and it's always kind of, I guess, trial and error to some degree.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's very true, great advice.
Speaker 3:
Okay, sure, I feel like I can't get them way over there, but I'm gonna reach way over, I'm gonna be all ones.
Speaker 1:
You're all business today, my friend.
Speaker 3:
Business in the front, party in the back.
Speaker 1:
Yes. What has been the most successful marketing strategy for building traction for foam?
Speaker 3:
Because I mean you've already succeeded.
Speaker 1:
You've already beat the record or the benchmark.
Speaker 3:
Yes, and definitely PR has been huge. Rightful Beach Magazine, wct, my hometown newspaper, intracostal magazine, just came out with a little article. So those I mean. I keep thinking how can I reach more people? Because, you know, at first I was really focusing on my surfer girls. And then I have a guy paddle around the pier to me, young guy, and go oh, I just loved your book. I went skiing with my family but I couldn't put your book down.
Speaker 2:
And I was like what so?
Speaker 3:
and then some ladies that aren't surfers and older in a book club all loved it, you know, and I'm just like oh. So how do I get it out there? How do I reach more people and I feel like that's probably one of the biggest keys Some of those different PR channels, anywhere, that's gonna reach more people than I can reach.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, for sure, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:
All right, you do one for me you want me to drop it?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I'll drop it on the side, yeah, I want that side. Watch me get stuck, and then I have to answer a question Still business, still business, still business.
Speaker 3:
I like talking about business. Yeah, I think that's why we're here, yeah that's why we're here.
Speaker 1:
How did you get into writing? So we kind of touched on that at the beginning.
Speaker 3:
but yeah, well, I will share that. My entry really into writing was I, don, and I had had a miscarriage, and my friend called me like a couple of weeks into that and just said, hey, I heard about this writers group that's starting in Wilmington and I just knew in that moment. Just I mean, what time is it? Where are we meeting? I'm coming. And I just knew writing would be helpful, and I've always journaled or whatever, since I was a little girl. I have an old diary in my bookcase. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:
But, yeah.
Speaker 3:
So that was kind of like you never know what things will push you into your next journey, I guess, and that was something that helped me deal with all the feelings that I was having at the time and all the emotions, and so that's why I started writing nonfiction and write about marriage, surfing, everything, yeah. But yeah, that's how it started. That's cool.
Speaker 1:
Are you still in some sort of writer's community? Yes, yes, I'm still in.
Speaker 3:
Word Weavers International, which is a Christian writers group that meets monthly all over and they have chapters all over the world. And then that was my main one, but there was another one that met and we're not meeting right now, but still, yeah, that's cool. You have to have those other people with you, because writing is a lonely process, so you need encouragement for that. Encouragement for sure. Cool, that's awesome, all right. All right, see what happens Last one.
Speaker 1:
We need to drop a few extra. We can Woo yes, partay, all right, let's see. Let's hope it's a good one or not. They're all good, but some of them are better than others, if you do say so yourself, If I do since I wrote them, I can say some Okay, what is your favorite local go-to place? So this can be food, fun, whatever hanging out.
Speaker 3:
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:
Greater. You can list a few. I won't limit you, Okay, oh, yay.
Speaker 3:
Okay, favorite place? Well, the beach, obviously, is number one, and so I love going to Sunday's coffee shop. There's no better big old Asahi bowl than that place. I mean they put it's loaded Nice and I love adapt. I love everything at the beach, but Don and I probably we love going out to dinner has to be within biking distance, cause we have the tandem and our new place is Kipos.
Speaker 1:
Oh, it's so good and so pretty, y'all gonna bike to there.
Speaker 3:
Yes, you look so cool. It's nice that I don't have to steer or pay attention.
Speaker 1:
I just have to pedal. I guess you can just hop.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it's not too bad. We go through Eaton Elementary, the park, and then we have that one little stretch on Gordon, then behind the old grocery store and then on the main path.
Speaker 1:
That's not bad. Yeah, it's so good. No-transcript Last year for like work Christmas party, it's so good. And then I tried we were gonna go.
Speaker 3:
That's a nice work. Christmas party. Well, we got a small team so. I wanna join your team.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, but yeah so good. And then me and Luke were gonna go one time on a date night, but it was like last minute and I was like nope, there's nothing open.
Speaker 3:
I'm gonna plan ahead, I'm gonna book that reservation ahead of time. Yeah, they are busy, yeah, and but they, you know, they fillet the fish right in front of you, yeah, so cool, awesome.
Speaker 1:
Well, let's, let's see what we're at, let's do yeah, let's do like one or two more, and then we can wrap it from there. All right, Dun, dun, dun, choo, choo, choo, choo choo.
Speaker 3:
Choo choo, Choo choo. Oh yeah, baby yeah, so I can pick from either. You can pick a can.
Speaker 1:
You can ask me just something in your brain. You can pick one of those random random card questions.
Speaker 3:
I'm gonna pick from the can, okay.
Speaker 1:
Hopefully it's not about writing, because I won't have an answer.
Speaker 3:
You do write all the time, okay, ooh.
Speaker 1:
Is this one for you? Yeah, you can pick a different one. You can save that one. Okay, that one looks like it might be one for you too. Holly, sorry, I can tell by the way they're cut.
Speaker 3:
Oh well, it's nice to know that I had specific ones made for me. Okay, if you could wave a magic wand and change anything, what would you change about Wilmington?
Speaker 1:
Today, today, right now. This is actually a good one. I haven't had to answer this one before.
Speaker 2:
And again.
Speaker 1:
I did write these, but a lot of them I didn't really think through me, Sorry.
Speaker 3:
Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do do. Just gonna waste some time on this podcast. Do, do, do, do, do, do do.
Speaker 1:
I might borrow from Luke's answer. Okay, so his answer? He was like completely, like he was putting the mountains, he was getting Puerto Rico waves, like he literally changed the entire landscape. I think I would get more outdoorsy activities other than the beach.
Speaker 1:
Because I love the beach. Yes, don't get me wrong, but sometimes it's nice Like we went to the mountains and we just did one random hike. There was some elevation, it was cool and crisp outside and it was great and I was like this would be fun to do, like in Wilmington. But I'm not gonna go. You can't go walk around, like how many times can you walk around Fort Fisher? That's right, and walk out that.
Speaker 3:
Should I allow me to stay.
Speaker 1:
Do a big freaking sand dune, sugar mountain or sugar whatever. Whatever I'm like that has like giant lump of sand and it hurt, like it makes my freaking chins hurt. Walking up sand like that, Maybe like some, maybe some ground.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Anyways. If you love the mound of sand. That's great. Not for me. I love the beach, but yeah, just like other.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
I just put us one like North Carolina Mountain.
Speaker 3:
Yes, right outside of town, that'd be nice. Yeah, yeah, okay, I would add a wave pool.
Speaker 1:
Like right outside of town? Okay, that'd be fun, yeah, yeah. Our five year old asked like the other day he's like you ever surfed in a pool. We're like I'm not yet you technically can. But yeah, okay, that's where you have, okay.
Speaker 3:
All right, cool, here we go.
Speaker 1:
Oh, no, hey oh, another personal, let's see, you might already know what this question is.
Speaker 3:
I grabbed it, didn't pay a lot of attention to it.
Speaker 1:
Oh, this will be a fun one. What is your spiciest opinion that most people disagree with?
Speaker 3:
Okay, I did hear you ask this question and I was on my way here driving and I immediately thought of I love Nacho Libre, the middle, oh, okay, and a lot of people, don't?
Speaker 1:
That's funny. That's a good one. I feel like I don't remember the specifics of it because I was these are the orphans cheaps.
Speaker 3:
When I met Don, I was right on a Nacho Libre high, Probably had watched it a couple of times and I was quoting, and Don said he watched that movie and had serious doubts about our relationship.
Speaker 1:
Oh no, I'm glad he gave you another chance?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, exactly that's so funny.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I feel like that's one of those like it was almost a classic in that like timeframe of like funny movies, I think, so I love it, that's so funny. I didn't know where you're knowing. I just didn't know where you're going to go with that one. I like that I like that direction.
Speaker 3:
So nobody said that one yet, no one.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yeah, most people either disagree with it or don't think about it. That's really funny, cool. Well, I think we can head to our closing question. So what can people expect from you next?
Speaker 3:
Well, if they read phone, at the end there is a link to book number two. Okay, and like I said in there, somewhere while I was writing this I started book number two. I've really written it. I don't have the ending yet, yeah, and it's not edited yet, which is the the burden of the whole thing. But it's called luminescent and it's a minor character in here that has the lead role.
Speaker 1:
I love when books do that. Yeah, me too. You get to like see a whole different. Is it okay without giving too much? Is it like the same, like timeframe of what's happening, or is it a separate?
Speaker 3:
It's a separate time frame because it's marked by an event. Okay yeah, but it does take place in Puerto Rico again.
Speaker 1:
Hey, yeah.
Speaker 3:
Kill.
Speaker 1:
Well, Puerto Rico Shout out Puerto Rico. I'll tell you after the podcast.
Speaker 3:
This is not something she feels comfortable sharing with you, and you and you.
Speaker 1:
Yes, I'll tell you afterwards. That's cool. I love that. Do you have? I guess, since you have to still get through the editing process, do you have like a target date, or is it?
Speaker 3:
Well, I released this on the first day of summer, which was so fun because it is kind of a be-tweet.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
And, of course, ocean centric. And so the book number two, I'm praying will be done for the first day of summer in 2024. That's awesome, yeah, so beyond the lookout. But right now foam is out there. It makes a good Christmas gift and anybody that loves adventure, surfing free, diving through underwater caves and yeah, so pick it up.
Speaker 1:
Awesome. What is the best way for people to follow you for set?
Speaker 3:
updates or get in touch with you.
Speaker 1:
Obviously, it's available on Amazon locally. You have it in handful of places, right?
Speaker 3:
Yes, so if they want the book, okay, let's write this up into two questions.
Speaker 1:
One if they want the book, what's the best way to get it?
Speaker 3:
Okay, if you're in the Wilmington area, they're at Sunday Surf City, surf Shop, roberts Grocery, pomegranate Books, barnes Noble, they're all those places Awesome. And then if you can't get to Wilmington, then it's definitely Barnes Noble and Amazon, of course. Please leave a review. That's great, and if you don't like it, that's fine, just tell me why.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, don't just leave a star give some people. Or you know, what we like to tell people here in the marketing world is if you have helpful feedback, yes, Just message it. Don't ruin. If, unless it's like tragic, don't mess someone's rating up with your star. Like talk to them and give them a chance.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Have a conversation and then if they suck on that front, then go ahead and leave your star review.
Speaker 3:
but yes, oh, that's nice, you get an extra little yeah give a little mention. Give them my meant to communicate. Yeah, I like that Crazy communication's crazy.
Speaker 1:
Cool. And then if they want to Get up with me, get up with you, follow you all that good stuff. How do they do that?
Speaker 3:
Yes, so loralsyniccom is my website, or you can go to foam the novel and it'll take you to my website, and then I do also writing retreats and surf retreats in Puerto Rico, puerto Rico. Yeah, so you can come to my website by the book or check out one of the retreats and follow me there. Of course, I'm on Instagram, loralsynic Facebook, instagram perfect that's it, love it.
Speaker 1:
And then, what is one final thought you would want to leave our listeners with. It can be from the business perspective, writing perspective, life perspective, whichever, wherever you feel like to go.
Speaker 3:
Well, I would just say I ran into a lot of naysayers. The Christian publishing world's like oh, your main character does drugs. No, no, no, no, we can't have you. And traditional publishing thought that because this was international, it didn't just stay in the US, that that was harder to make sales with, which may be true, I don't know. They didn't think that Ocean was a universal enough theme to be a good selling book, and so don't go with the naysayers.
Speaker 2:
If you believe in it and you know you wanted it.
Speaker 3:
I mean go for it.
Speaker 1:
You can make it happen. Yeah, you can figure it out. Believe in it, that's so interesting the ocean is not universal.
Speaker 3:
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:
Cool, Maybe we're biased to the ocean, but yeah, I mean, yeah, think about it If you're like. Oh well, if you would have listened to that, like wouldn't have made that wouldn't have spent eight years on this book. Yeah, you wouldn't be here with your book.
Speaker 3:
And don't quit, because I mean just because it takes a long time doesn't mean it's not meant to be, that's yeah, that's true, cool, well, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2:
This was fun.
Speaker 1:
Got another catch up Again locally. Lots of places online you guys can buy this book.
Speaker 3:
Oh yeah, and you can listen to our podcast. Yes, that actually kickstarter got us kickstarted. Yeah, we did.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that was back before. Yeah, when we had like the intern program. Alyssa who she did the logo. That's right. Post session podcast yes, and that is on all the podcast platforms Awesome, Thank you Cool thanks for having me, of course. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of 2KandTalks brought to you by Kickstart Collective. If you loved this episode, be sure to subscribe wherever you watch podcast and follow Kickstart Collective on Instagram at Kickstart Collective.
